In the fourth episode of “Leading and Thriving in the Church,” Prince talks with Ruth Haley Barton, the founding president and CEO of the Transforming Center, whose mission is to strengthen the souls of pastors, spiritual leaders and the congregations and organizations they serve.
Here is how Ruth describes her work:
“Encountering the richness of the broader Christian tradition in the midst of my own desire has led me to reclaim practices and experiences that spiritual seekers down through the ages have used to open themselves to God’s transforming work. For many years I have been privileged to teach and consult with leadership teams in the areas of leadership transformation, corporate leadership discernment, and spiritual community which means I’ve had a ringside seat to witnessing how God brings about change in the lives of individuals and in communities as they gather.
“I have been a student, a practitioner and a leader in the area of Christian spirituality and spiritual formation for over twenty years. It was my own journey into practices offered by the broader Christian tradition that led me to start the Transforming Center – communities of men and women who gather around the presence of Christ for the purpose of spiritual transformation in order to discern and do the will of God. It also planted within me a desire to see churches become centers of spiritual transformation as well.
“While I have had the privilege of studying under many wonderful teachers and in many respected institutions, the most valuable preparation for doing what I do has been my training in spiritual direction (Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation) so many years ago. In whatever context I find myself… writing, teaching, preaching, retreat leading… I am always present as a spiritual director, trying to sense what God is doing in the room and helping leaders and the communities they serve touch their deepest desires to experience God’s transforming presence more fully.”
Learn more about Ruth at her website, where you can find links to her books and podcast.
In this episode, Ruth and Prince discuss:
- the question of “how do people change, really?”
- building up trust in community
- spiritual practices to help leaders nourish their souls
- how leaders should use the Enneagram
- and more!
Transcript
Prince Rivers: What does it mean to lead now, especially in the church, especially in this political and social climate? I’m Prince Rivers, and this is Leading and Thriving in the Church, a podcast from Alban at Duke Divinity. Our mission is to help you be the leader God has called you to be. It’s been my privilege to serve as a pastor for more than 20 years, and I absolutely love supporting people who lead congregations. It’s one of my passions. But doing ministry in the post-pandemic era has unearthed new leadership challenges, and it has led us to pay more attention to the need for thriving ministers and congregations. This podcast features conversations with some of the most innovative pastors, leaders, and authors I know. They’re going to help us do church faithfully and effectively, and in a way that is life-giving to those who lead and the people we serve. I’m so glad you’re listening. I can’t wait to introduce you to today’s guest on Leading and Thriving in the Church.
Dr. Ruth Haley Barton is my guest today. She’s the founding president and CEO of the Transforming Center, whose mission is to strengthen the souls of pastors, spiritual leaders, and the congregations and organizations they serve.
Ruth, you are doing incredible and incredibly important work on behalf of the people of God. You direct retreats. You’re a spiritual leader and a prolific author. You’ve written An Invitation to Solitude and Silence, Sacred Rhythms, Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership, and Pursuing God’s Will Together, and most recently, Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest. It has been a real gift for me to get to know you over the past several years, and I’m delighted that you are able to be with us on today’s episode.
Ruth Haley Barton: Ah, thank you, Prince. It’s great to be with you. I so value the shared journey that we’ve had together.
PR: Well, Ruth, when we first met, I was a participant in the Transforming Center community, and that experience continues to transform and impact my life today, and my ministry today. But before we talk about what happens in transforming communities, I’m wondering if you can share a little bit about your vocational journey with us. I know you’re a PK.
RHB: Yes.
PR: You grew up in congregational ministry for a while, but tell us a little bit about the path that God led you on up to the point of founding the Transforming Center.
RHB: Yeah. Well, yeah, the church world is the world I know the best because I am a pastor’s kid. And, you know, it’s interesting that children of pastors, they see the church differently than others do. They look at it, the way I talk about it, is they look up at it from the seamy underbelly of what really goes on there. So, it is the world I know the best because of the way that I was raised, and I think that my questions about transformation and the possibility of spiritual transformation actually began when I was a child. And that was observing as a child that many people that I saw around me had been in church for 50 years, attending at least three times a week, and yet they weren’t changing. They were still selfish. They were territorial. They were judgmental. They were gossipy. They were mean to my dad. So my little childhood self said, “How can we be going to church this much and people are not changing?” And I really do believe that that’s where the journey started for me was with that question, with my observations as a pastor’s kid, and just watching things unfold there in my childhood. So, I think I’ve been wrestling with that question since forever.
And then, of course, I started to notice the same thing about myself, that I could be in church every week, that I could be leading, that I could be teaching others, and I wasn’t changing, and that was perhaps even more sobering and devastating to realize. And so I’ve been in ministry in many different kinds of settings, really big, complicated ones and small, intimate ones, and this question of “how do people change, really?” has been a motivating question of my life. And then as I have emerged into my own leadership through the years, I’ve also had an awareness that whatever is or is not happening in my life as a leader and in your life as a leader, whatever is stuck and broken or whatever is transforming and changing, that will find its way out to the edges of the environments in which I am leading.
And so this idea of transforming leadership, leaders continuing to pay attention to their own journey of transformation in really intentional ways – because their own transformational journey or their own dysfunction will affect the groups that they lead without them even trying. They can try to hide their own dysfunction, but it will show. They can actually keep their transformation rather personal to themselves, but their presence, their transforming presence will change their environment for the good just because of who they are. And so this whole idea that the best thing you bring to leadership is your own transforming self is now really the riveting idea of my own life. And I’m very faithful to it personally. I’m always on a deeply transformational journey myself even while I’m leading others and writing.
I think that writing is the deepest part of who I am. I knew when I was very, very young that I wanted to be a writer, and I’ve always written. So, I think the books are first, and the writing and trying to articulate things in writing is first in my life. But I’m also a trained spiritual director because spiritual direction has been such an important aspect of my own spiritual growth as a leader. And so once I did my own training in spiritual direction and began to think about how that even might become a piece of leadership development, then that’s what really motivated me to start these transforming communities where leaders make a covenant to journey together, and they do it in a very private, safe way where we really hold that space for them and they can be on an intentional, spiritual, transformational journey because I know I’ve needed that so much in my own life.
PR: I’ve heard you say on other occasions that the best thing we bring to leadership is our own transforming self, and I’ve said it before. I’ve thought about it. There is nothing like that self-reflective mirror to help us recognize that we need to be on that journey.
So, this podcast is Leading and Thriving in the Church, and you see pastors from all walks of life and ministry and places around the country. This is maybe a difficult question, but are pastors thriving today? And if you want to answer that on a continuum, that’s fine.
RHB: Yeah.
PR: But what are you seeing?
RHB: Well, I mean, obviously if we had a little bit more time we might define the word “thriving” together so that we had a shared understanding of what that means. But I do have a strong sense of what it means to thrive, and I would say that by most measurements, no, pastors these days are not thriving. But that’s no surprise to you. We know that the great resignation is going on right now, and many pastors are even telling their stories of stepping away from ministry. At the very least, many, many pastors are just barely hanging on. They’re trying really hard to hang on, but COVID has worn them down, the political divisions have worn them down, the political divisions are something that’s been exposed through COVID, and I think many pastors were blissfully unaware of how deep the divisions went in their own congregations before COVID sort of surfaced it all.
I think life in our culture is extremely challenging to try to convene people into a physical gathering. I think the spiritual life is hard to cast vision for when we’re so distracted, and people are so married to their technologies and things like that. We live in a consumeristic environment, which means that pastors know they are being consumed. They know that people are coming and looking at their churches from a very consumeristic standpoint, not with a sense of “what can I give and what can I bring?” but “what can I get?” And I’m going to come because I like the band at this church, I like the choir, I like the preacher, we need the youth group. And when those things then wobble, the person leaves because it no longer serves them. I mean, consumerism is a terribly draining aspect of our life in church right now.
And then, you know, we are also very disillusioned. People are very disillusioned by what they’ve seen in the church, and the moral failures of leaders, and the lack of willingness to deal with issues of gender and race and sexuality. It’s just a very, very hard time to lead through these issues that are so divisive right now, and there’s such a lack of civility in our culture now that many, many people are not even mature enough to engage the conversations in ways that have a basic civility or a basic spirituality to how we engage each other. So, I think that all of these are reasons why pastors are struggling to thrive right now, and that many, many, many of them are not.
PR: Yeah. Thank you. That is sobering, but I do think it’s fairly accurate. I mean, I’ve walked with pastors like you have, and many of them really are just, like you said, struggling to hang on.
RHB: Yeah.
PR: Now you have strong leadership gifts. You are a visionary in many ways. You’re smart. You’re wise, and you’re a woman in ministry. And I know that is something that you’ve thought about, written about. I’ve heard you teach on it. Do you see, in these times, sort of more, less, or about the same openness to women in ministry as when you first started?
RHB: Well, I think definitely there’s more churches and places that are affirming, fully affirming of women using their gifts in whatever capacity within their churches. I think you can find those kinds of churches more easily these days because there are more of them. But I will say that I thought that by this time the next generation would have carried us forward into a world where there was no question that women could be equal in ministry, but that is not what has happened. In fact, there are organizations now that have developed in response and reaction…
PR: That’s right.
RHB: …to the equality of women. And some denominations, I will not name those right here, right now, but some denominations have taken a new, strong, drive-a-bigger-stake-in-the-ground against the equality of women in ministry, a major denomination that you and I would both know about. And major churches kicking out big churches from their denomination because that denomination ordains women or calls women pastors. So, I could say that I had hoped that by this time – because I started writing about this 30 years ago. And the book that I wrote about has gone out of print. That’s how long it’s been because it no longer really communicates and holds. And yet I thought that the younger generation, with the coming up of the younger generation, that this issue would be resolved and we’d be moving on. But it is still here, and I have to tell you, I am shocked. I am shocked that this issue is still one that is causing division within the church. I don’t mind there being disagreement, but it’s causing actual division still within the church.
PR: Yeah. And one of the other topics we’ve had some very fruitful conversations about is race.
RHB: Yes.
PR: And I know how passionate you are about helping people to explore that, questions around race.
RHB: Yeah.
PR: And the cohorts that you’re seeing now, are people asking new questions about race? Are they trying to face the challenge in different ways? What do you see?
RHB: Well, first of all, Prince, I just want to thank you for creating one of those watershed moments within the Transforming community experience that we offer. Is it all right for me to tell our story?
PR: Oh yeah, please.
RHB: Because I think it’s continued to shape us here in the Transforming Center. You’ve really left an imprint on us in this way.
So, it must be 10 years ago now, perhaps, yeah, when you were in community with us, and I was giving a teaching on gender, and I was talking about the fact that I’ve thought that that was sort of the defining issue in our bodies to pay attention to as the place where we experience discrimination and all of that. And when I was finished with my very eloquent message, I must say, you approached me at a break, and you said, “You know, Ruth, I know that you said that, for you, gender is a defining characteristic, and that’s where you are most aware of yourself: when you enter into a room, is the male and the female, and the balance of it, and all of that. But that’s not my experience. My experience is that when I enter into a room, I’m very aware of race, and I’m very aware of what the racial makeup is in the room, and who’s in charge, and I’m aware of myself as a Black man in the room.”
And so we started to have this really great conversation during the break, which I was so grateful that you raised this for me and with me. And I said, “Hey, would you like to just take this conversation to the front of the room and we just have it with the whole community?”
And there were about 80 people in the room, and you agreed. And it was just a gorgeous moment, because you then shared your experience of finding race to be the defining issue when you enter a room, what you’re most aware of when you enter a room. And you shared your story of talking with your son, that horrible talk that Black parents need to have with their Black sons. And then your story and your presence and your willingness to share opened up other experiences in the room. And one of the ones that I remember really, really well was a woman pastor saying, “I really appreciate Prince’s perspective, but let me tell you about my perspective as a Black woman.”
PR: Right.
RHB: And then she shared something that was completely different than what you had shared. And then an Asian man talked about his own self-hatred around race. And the conversation just went, but in a deeply spiritual and held way where we were not talking about race as a social justice issue, which it is. But we were talking about it as a human issue, as a spiritual issue. We were talking about dealing with issues of race from the standpoint of our spiritual transformation, and what needed to be transformed within us and among us. And I can’t even describe the presence of the Spirit in that place, and you opened that up by being willing to approach me and talk about your experience, which was different than mine.
So, I really appreciate your question because we have grown from that moment here in the Transforming Center. It was a real catalyst for our own growth. And I do believe that the fact that we deal with the issue of race as a formational issue, so now we talk about gender as a separate topic, we talk about race as a separate topic, and we talk about sexuality as a separate topic, but all in the context of honoring the body as a spiritual practice, and honoring our own bodies but also honoring other people’s bodies. And how the way that we’ve treated each other on the basis of those areas has been so destructive and deforming to us over time. And what does it take for us to enter into these conversations and to change our structures and to change our experiences in community, such that our experience together becomes transforming versus deforming? And it’s been deforming for much longer than it’s been transforming. And so it’s now really front-burner. It’s a really significant aspect of our transforming community experience is dealing with the subject of race in the context of spiritual transformation.
Which, the other thing I will say is that we don’t deal with that topic until the fifth retreat, which means that because our retreats are quarterly, we’ve already been together for a whole year, cultivating a transforming community experience together, cultivating safety, cultivating worship, cultivating ways of opening to God together. So, by the time we get to that retreat in the second year, we have so much foundation in terms of where we can stand to have the conversation, and it’s so – what I’ve experienced is that it’s very distinctive and it’s more profitable because of the relationships that we’ve cultivated before even trying to have that conversation. And our commitment to transformation also undergirds when we can say it’s a deforming experience to be discriminated against. That’s a stake that we’ve driven into the ground, that you can’t call people to spiritual transformation while you’re discriminating against them in some way because we’ve already been exploring the topic of transformation and what that really means. It just makes more sense spiritually. And why it’s a spiritual issue in addition to being a justice issue.
PR: Yeah. And I think your point about dealing with the issue not until the fifth retreat is so powerful because it is a matter of trust.
RHB: Yes.
PR: I mean there’s so much mistrust that has been built up in our culture. It takes a lot of work, a lot of inner work, a lot of interpersonal work for people to be able to have these kinds of conversations.
RHB: Yeah. And so we’re coming at it with our own desire, personal desire to be transformed. And we’re committed to that already. And then we’re also coming with a great deal of love and regard for the people that we’re journeying with. And so when they say something of the magnitude that you said to me, like everything within me just wants to listen to you because I love you, and because I’m committed to you, and I’m committed to this journey that we have together. And so I could never dismiss you because I want to be with you, and I’ve chosen to be with you on a journey.
PR: Yeah. Thank you.
You mentioned the word “practices,” and I know that practices are foundational to the work that you do, and how you work with leaders. On the back cover of your book, Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership, there’s a quote. I believe it’s from you. It says, it talks about early on in your journey. There was this sentence. It says, “I’m tired of helping others enjoy God. I just want to enjoy God for myself.”
Ruth, during the pandemic, our church remodeled its sanctuary, and we took away the pulpit chairs because they didn’t match the new décor. And I really just never got around to asking for more.
RHB: That’s a truly discerning decision. I can tell that that was a truly discerning decision.
PR: Well, but this is the thing. I think that the Spirit was in it because I started sitting in the front row. And with the choir and the singers facing me instead of being behind me, it completely changed my experience in worship. And so now, instead of being on stage, I was in worship. And, for some people, that’s a small thing, but I felt like I could more freely enjoy myself and enjoy the presence of God on Sunday morning. And now that has reinvigorated a practice that had become, really, a profession for me.
RHB: Yes.
PR: So, what are some of the spiritual practices that you think are just paramount to helping leaders nourish their souls?
RHB: Yeah. Thank you. Well, the first one for me is solitude and silence. I do believe that the spiritual life begins in solitude, and solitude by definition is withdrawing from life and the company of others to give my full and undivided attention to God, and giving God full access to my soul. The spiritual life begins with God. There is this deep, inside place that we call the soul where God’s Spirit witnesses with our spirit about who we really are and other things that are true. And so it begins with listening for the voice of God in our own lives and cultivating our sense of belonging to God and God alone. And so there are many things that can take place there. Silence takes place in solitude, and I do recommend time in silence for every leader because solitude and silence, even in practicing them, they are formative because we withdraw from the noise, the accolades, the identity, the success or not. We withdraw from all of that and find our identity in God beyond all the externals of our lives. And, for leaders, that’s more important than it even is for the normal person on the street to withdraw from that identity for a while and to just be a soul in God’s presence, and to allow God to care for us. To me it’s where spiritual health begins, is the cultivation of solitude silence. And then all the things that can take place there: prayer, reflection on scripture, but not a study kind of interaction with scripture, but a more heart-reflective interaction with scripture.
Self-examination is another practice that is so essential for leaders, and solitude can be a context for that. The apostle Paul says that when I want to do good, evil is close at hand. Parker Palmer talks about the fact that a leader is someone who must take special responsibility for what’s going on inside his or her consciousness, lest the active leadership do more harm than good. So, the verse, “When I want to do good, evil is close at hand”: we all enter into ministry because we want to do good. And Paul is saying, right there, where we want to do good, evil is close at hand. What is the evil? Well, I’ve come to believe that the evil is the parts of our own lives and personalities that are unresolved, that give a foothold for Satan to come in and to do Satan’s evil work through us, through the places that are unresolved within us, that are out of control, and that are unconscious, and where we’re working our stuff out in negative ways with other people. It gives Satan a foothold in our life.
So, if I had to reduce it to two, I would say solitude and self-examination are the most. And embedded within that is the life of prayer where we are cultivating our friendship with God, on God’s terms for us, and apart from all that we do for God. We are cultivating our friendship with God.
I do believe that community, practices in community, are essential for leaders. And so I would include having a spiritual director. I would include spiritual direction in that. I would include spiritual companionship with people who are peers for you, spiritual peers. Then there’s the worshipping community that we need to be a part of, and our families I think are part of the community that God gives us. And so sometimes spiritual leaders can become very isolated. In fact, in every survey done regarding what is draining and depleting for pastors, isolation is right up there in the top five. And so for us to cultivate communities outside of our leadership, communities where we’re not the pastor, communities where we’re not on all the time, where we just get to be a human with other humans, to me that’s a deeply spiritual practice.
I really think pastors need to always be alternating between spiritual direction and therapy because the pastoral vocation is really challenging to our psychology. And so, to me, therapy is a spiritual practice to keep us healthy.
And then, finally, our life with others in the world and the ministry that we do coming out of our belonging to God and our solitude with God, coming out of the strengthening of our life together in community. You know, Bob Mulholland, our New Testament theologian that informs a lot of what we do, he talks about the fact that our community sustains us in the mystery of our faith. That we’re sustained in the mystery of our faith within our community, and then from that place, we emerge and we discern what God is calling us to do. And even doing what God is calling us to do faithfully can also become spiritual practices where God is forming Christ in us even while we’re contributing to the needs of the world. So, that would be a balanced, overall perspective for me on the spiritual practices that leaders need to have in place in their lives.
PR: There’s so many things I want to tease out –
RHB: I know, I know, I know!
PR: Let me just pick one. So, you talked about sort of self-reflection, which I just think self-awareness is such a critical component of any life, but certainly a life of leadership. And I was exposed to the Enneagram through Transforming Center. This was ten years ago or more. And lots of people are talking about the Enneagram today, obviously, and it’s not uncommon for me to be in a group of clergy, especially, and the next thing you know people are talking about their number. What led you to use the Enneagram in your work with clergy, and what do you hope or think that we need to take away from our exposure to that kind of resource?
RHB: Oh, that’s a great question. When we began, we actually used the Myers-Briggs for the first few communities. That was before the Enneagram became all the rage. And the Myers-Briggs can be helpful, but the Myers-Briggs is often emphasizing your strengths and leaning into your strengths. It’s also used for team building. When I began to understand what the Enneagram was, I saw it as being distinctly different than the Myers-Briggs because it was not trying to identify your strength. It was actually trying to identify your besetting sin, your darker passion. So, if that doesn’t tell you right there why leaders ought to be looking at the Enneagram. And I thought, “That’s what we really need.” We know our strengths. We did our strength-finders and everything else in seminary. What we really need to get in touch with is the besetting sin, the darker passion, that pattern that keeps us from surrendering ourselves to God, that has been formed within our childhoods and within our experiences in culture and things like that. And if those things can be uncovered, the false self patterns, it’s meant to uncover the false self patterns. And there’s very little in terms of practice within the Christian tradition, other than the Enneagram – I mean it’s actually based on the seven deadly sins, but it’s a tool that’s meant to help uncover the deadly sin that is uniquely ours. And, in that way, it serves us very, very well because, as leaders, we’re used to receiving accolades for our strengths, but what helps us get in touch with the besetting sin and the darker passion that may even be driving the way that we’re functioning in leadership. So, I think it’s tremendously valuable, but not as a parlor game sort of a thing. Sometimes I feel like people are using it like a parlor game. But if you use it as a tool for self-examination, that leads to self-knowledge, that leads to confession, that leads to transformation, it’s going to be very, very powerful in terms of cultivating healthy leaders, and we’re all about it.
PR: That’s great. That’s great.
You have a new book out, Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest. And I know “rhythms” is another phrase that shows up in a lot of what you do. Sacred Rhythms was another work of yours. As a parent, a dad of two, and just the different seasons of life – and you have children as well – I think a lot about rhythms because I’m always having to pivot to figure out, “How do I say sane and healthy?” What do you want people to take away from this new project of yours, Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest?
RHB: Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. I’m going to mention three things briefly here.
One is that Sabbath keeping is not a lifestyle suggestion. That is actually a gift from God, but it’s also one of the Ten Commandments, and it originates with God, not with the Jewish people. It originates with God. That’s how God did God’s creative life was by incorporating a day of ceasing after six days of creating. So, the fact that I don’t know how we as Christians have dismissed the Sabbath as a really important practice for ourselves, but I’m trying to reclaim it as being about God and not a lifestyle suggestion, but actually one of the sacred rhythms that keeps us healthy and whole in this world. I also see it as a formative discipline where God forms something in us on that day that doesn’t get formed in any other way, like trust, for instance. If I take my hand off the plow, I can trust that what I’ve done this week has been enough, and I can trust that God will keep working while I’m resting, and I can trust that when I reemerge and come back into my work, that I’ll be able to reengage perhaps even in a healthier way. So, it’s formative. It forms something in us. It’s humbling in the very best sense of the word. Sabbath is resistance because we’re resisting the influence of our culture and saying, no, the culture does not own me. I belong to God, and this is God’s rhythm for me. So, those are some really important sort of deeper biblical theological foundations.
I’m also really emphasizing in this book the gift nature of Sabbath. So, there’s a lot of emphasis on why this is a gift, and the fact that, for me, the practice that causes me to fall in love with God all over again, every week, is the Sabbath because I cannot believe that we have such a good God that would give us what we need and something that’s so beautiful and so delightful and so needed. Literally, I fall in love with God all over again, and I feel God being in love with me. I feel loved by God beyond all of my doing every Sabbath day, and I’m just grateful beyond words. In fact, I would make the bold statement that I wouldn’t be alive today, I wouldn’t be alive in ministry today if it wasn’t for the Sabbath.
Then, finally, one of the things I wanted to bring through this book was the idea of Sabbath as a communal practice. I think that many people are trying to practice Sabbath right now as a private discipline, but they’re not seeing it as a communal practice. And I remember when I, for a season, was not on staff at a church and we got to attend a church as just a normal family. And I thought, okay, finally, now Sundays are not going to be such a busy day. We can finally figure out how to have Sabbath as a family. And that church scheduled everything for Sundays. Small groups, congregational meetings, choir practices, youth groups: everything happened on Sundays. And I realized, oh my goodness, it’s not the secular culture that’s preventing me from having a Sabbath. It’s actually the church and the church’s schedule. Not only are they not leading and guiding into this practice, but their way of scheduling is preventing me, as a Christian who wants a Sabbath, from actually having a Sabbath. And so then I had to really dig down into the fact that the Sabbath was never given as a private discipline. It was given to a community. The only reason they could actually do it effectively was because they were all doing it together.
And so, in this book, I am really speaking directly to leaders and pastors about how they can cultivate Sabbath communities. And I feel very, very passionate about that aspect of that book because I do think it’s a place of cultural conformity where a lack of Sabbath keeping is a place where we’re conforming to culture versus challenging culture and confronting culture. And I do think that we, as pastors and leaders, need to see Sabbath keeping for ourselves and also leading our communities in Sabbath keeping as a part of our spiritual leadership.
PR: Dr. Ruth Haley Barton, my friend, and an amazing woman who is doing really transformational things – if I can use the word – in the lives of pastors around the country, around the world really: thank you for being on Leading and Thriving in the Church today.
RHB: Aww.
PR: I pray that this new project, Embracing Rhythms of Work and Rest, reaches many, many, many people, and I really appreciate you being on the show.
RHB: Prince, you are such a gift to me in my life, and your presence continues to be a North Star for me in some of these important areas. So, thank you for your friendship.
Sign up for Prince’s weekly reflections and resources in the Alban Weekly.
Rate, review and subscribe to “Leading and Thriving in the Church” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.