In the second episode of our third season, Prince talks with John Witvliet, director of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship and Professor of Worship, Theology, and Congregational Ministry Studies at Calvin University and Calvin Theological Seminary.
Discussion topics include:
- How worship leaders can balance maintaining tradition and being innovative
- Creating opportunities for pastors and musicians to learn together
- Involving youth in worship
- And more!
Guest bio
John D. Witvliet is the director of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship (CICW) and professor of worship, theology, & congregational and ministry studies at Calvin University and Calvin Theological Seminary.
A graduate of Calvin University, Dr. Witvliet holds graduate degrees in theology from Calvin Theological Seminary, in music from the University of Illinois, and the Ph.D. in liturgical studies and theology from the University of Notre Dame.
As a teacher, he has mentored student research and offered courses on worship and theology, the Psalms, Trinitarian liturgical and sacramental theology, the history of worship, the Christian year, the arts in worship, as well as recent co-taught exploratory courses and seminars on global Christianity, intercultural learning, disability, and African-American religious autobiography.
As an administrator, he leads a program team of colleagues who oversee Calvin University’s ministry studies programs and CICW’s practical and scholarly programs, including the Calvin Symposium on Worship, the Vital Worship Grants Program, preachingandworship.org, CICW’s web and social media sites, as well as consulting with congregations, denominations, ecumenical organizations, and worship-related academic and pastoral ministries.
As a faculty colleague, he has served as a member of the professional status committees of both Calvin University and Calvin Theological Seminary, on several faculty and administrative search committees, and as a principal author of institutional documents related to faith formation, academic freedom, arts-related funding, and university structure.
As a scholar and public speaker, he explores biblical and systematic theology of worship, the pluriformity of worship practices across cultures and denominational contexts, the role of music and the arts in worship, and culture-shaping practices of pastoral leadership—addressing both academic and lay audiences in many different Christian traditions.
His published academic writings include Worship Seeking Understanding (Baker Academic, 2003), a co-edited volume, Worship in Medieval and Early Modern Europe (University of Notre Dame Press, 2004), and several recent essays and chapters in books and academic journals, including materials presented in endowed lectures and conferences at Fuller Theological Seminary, Yale Divinity School, Princeton Theological Seminary, Pepperdine University, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and Canadian Mennonite Seminary.
His pastoral writings include Proclaiming the Christmas Gospel: Ancient Sermons and Hymns for Contemporary Christian Inspiration (Baker, 2004), The Biblical Psalms in Christian Worship (Eerdmans, 2007), a quarterly column in Reformed Worship, and essays in Christianity Today, Christian Century and other periodicals, as well as three co-authored children’s books: At Your Baptism (Eerdmans, 2011), At God’s Table/En La Mesa de Dios (Calvin Press, 2017) and At Psalm’s School/En la escuela de los Salmos (GIA, 2019).
He has been active in collaborative worship resource and congregational song projects, including The Worship Sourcebook (Faith Alive Christian Resources, Baker Books, 2004), Renew! (Hope Publishing, 1995), Sing! A New Creation (CRC Publications, 2001), Singing the New Testament (Faith Alive, 2008), Psalms for All Seasons: A Complete Psalter for Worship (Faith Alive, 2012), Lift Up Your Hearts (Faith Alive, 2013), and a bilingual Spanish-English hymnal, Santo, Santo, Santo/Holy, Holy, Holy (GIA, 2019). He has served as editor for three series of books—the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship Liturgical Studies Series (Eerdmans), Vital Worship, Healthy Congregations (Alban Institute), Church at Worship (Eerdmans)—as well as co-editor, with Pearl Shangkuan, of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship Choral Music Series (GIA).
He has served as president of the board of directors for The Choristers Guild; music director of churches in Michigan and Indiana; research associate at Notre Dame’s Center for Pastoral Liturgy; and guest lecturer at worship conferences in several states and provinces, as well as in Hong Kong, Mexico City, Northern Ireland, England, and the Netherlands. He is the recipient of awards from the National Association of Pastoral Musicians, the Hampton Ministers Conferences and Choir Directors and Organists Guild, All Belong, the Brehm Center at Fuller Seminary, and Calvin University.
Transcript
Prince Rivers:
What would it look like not just to lead, but to thrive? That’s a big question. In the post-pandemic era, church leaders are facing all kinds of new challenges. And doing church faithfully and effectively can sometimes feel more difficult than ever before. My name is Prince Rivers. I’ve got a background in leadership studies, and I’ve had the privilege of serving as a pastor for more than 25 years. One of my passions is supporting the people who lead congregations. On this podcast, some of the most innovative leaders I know sit down to share about how we can carry out our work in a way that is life-giving for us and for the people we serve. I’m so glad you’re listening. Welcome to today’s episode of Leading and Thriving in the Church.
John D. Witvliet is the director of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship and Professor of Worship, Theology, and Congregational Ministry Studies at Calvin University and Calvin Theological Seminary.
As a scholar and public speaker, he explores biblical and systematic theology of worship, the role of music and the arts in worship, and culture-shaping practices of pastoral leadership, addressing both academic and lay audiences in many different Christian traditions. He’s published numerous academic and pastoral books, volumes, and columns, including three co-authored children’s books.
John is the recipient of awards from the National Association of Pastoral Musicians, the Hampton Ministers Conferences and Choir Directors and Organists Guild, All Belong, and Calvin University. John, it’s great to be with you again and thanks for being on this episode of Leading and Thriving in the Church.
John Witvliet:
Thank you so much, Prince. I’m looking forward to the conversation.
Prince Rivers:
Let’s dive right in. You have extensive experience in worship and theology. Tell me a little bit about your journey into the field of worship and liturgy. What initially drew you into this area?
John Witvliet:
Well, I’m sure that the initial interest and motivation goes back early in my life. I’m grateful as the son of a pastor to have been able to see church life from behind the scenes a bit. I’m grateful for amazing musicians that served in congregations that I was growing up, teachers along the way.
And I think through the experiences of worship in the churches that I grew up and through conversations with my parents certainly and other teachers and leaders began to realize there’s a lot more going on a typical Sunday morning than meets the eye.
And it’s of great beauty and power and great capacity to comfort and challenge people. But I think like many people in our field of worship, liturgy and sacred music, I would say I’m in many ways inspired into the field because of also the amazing experiences of being a part of Christian assembly.
Prince Rivers:
That’s a great story, great testimony. And I imagine you’ve had many different experiences and probably many different contexts. How have those experiences and even your research shaped your understanding of worship, especially as we think about worship in contemporary Christian context?
John Witvliet:
The big surprise that has been a joy as part of my professional journey is the opportunity to participate in a grants program funded by Lilly Endowment that we at the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship have been able to offer and [that] has given us a front row seat to innovative ideas from leaders in congregations across the country and different traditions, cultures and the like. So every year we’re reading grant proposals with really encouraging and inspiring ideas.
And one of the astonishing things over the years has been how many different kinds of ideas there have been and how many different contexts, radically different contexts, these ideas have come from, people involved in worship, in hospital chaplaincy ministries, in military chaplaincy, in tall steeple congregations, storefront congregations, people who have ideas about preaching or sacraments or music, arts, children’s participation.
It goes on and on. And I think it’s been a great joy and it points to how really immeasurably deep and rich this whole field is, and those proposals every year continue to deepen and inspire.
Prince Rivers:
That sounds like great work. And when you mentioned these innovative ideas, it made me wonder: what are some of the foundational principles of worship that you think are still relevant for Christian congregations today? So much is happening and so diverse all over the country.
John Witvliet:
Several years ago, all of us at the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship reflected on our work across traditions and identified a list of 10 core convictions that we have published, that we have used on our own teaching. In many ways, these come out of the insights of these grant proposals and other work we’ve done, and they’re a balance of different considerations.
The first one: very theocentric worship is immeasurably enriched by a vivid awareness of the beauty, majesty, mystery, and holiness of the triune God. And I would put that theocentric starting point there in every conversation possible. But then the second core conviction in our list: the full conscious act of participation of all worshipers ideally in an intergenerational community, regardless of ability or disability, that deep participation piece.
And then several convictions related to different aspects of worship: deep engagement with scripture, joyful and solemn celebrations of baptism, of Lord’s Supper, an open and discerning approach to culture, lots of collaboration with other congregational ministries, warm hospitality for all people, and good collaborative planning and evaluation. So there are many things there that are deeply connected with literature and discussions of healthy leadership as well.
Prince Rivers:
Yeah, that’s a great list. We will probably spend an entire conversation just talking about that list. I heard some really great things, so I hope our listeners will go back and look into those core convictions a little bit more.
Part of what that makes me think about is just the balance that one has to have when you think about change, you think about what has come before us. And one of the phrases that is used more and more today [is] tradition and innovation. How do you think worship leaders can balance maintaining tradition and being innovative in their services?
John Witvliet:
Well, I think with every central practice in worship, there’s no substitute for deep reflection on the core point or aim in any given practice of worship. The praise of God involves remembering with some specificity what God has done. It involves not ourselves being at the center of the action. So there’s reflection on what the practice is and then the question of what does that look like, what shape does that look like in our context today?
One of the practices we love to work with is the practice of praying or singing the Psalms, so the Old Testament songbook of God’s people. And so those texts endure, but the way those texts are brought to life has changed dramatically over time and throughout culture.
I love on the first day of the course I teach to undergraduates at Calvin University to invite them to take a psalm and to spend some time on YouTube looking for musical settings of that psalm. Usually we begin with Psalm 27. And there are musical settings from every culture around the world, and it’s a pretty remarkable way to start a course for students to realize how this ancient text endures. The tradition is to pray it and let it form us, but the way that happens varies widely and has still all sorts of unrealized possibilities.
Prince Rivers:
One of my favorite modern gospel songs is “Psalm 8” by Richard Smallwood, and certainly that makes me think of that.
John Witvliet:
Absolutely. It works on YouTube for almost any psalm, that one can drop the psalm name in. And if you scroll at least through the first 30 or 40 entries to give yourself a YouTube world tour of how that psalm sounds in different contexts, it’s splendid.
Prince Rivers:
That’s a great exercise, and it probably surfaces as you think about the diversity of songs and cultures where those psalms come from different theologies. So how do you think the theology of worship impacts the way congregations experience worship and even participate in worship?
John Witvliet:
Yes, yes. Well, that’s a very big question. I think one of the key theological themes to pay attention to is always how congregations perceive God to be at work in and through worship. And one of the things that we notice across traditions, one of the most ancient of Christian practices, is praying for God to be at work in and through what we do.
I mean, all the way back to the psalms and toward the end of Psalm 51, the prayer, “open our lips that our mouths may declare your praise.” There’s a little paradox in that statement, and we often sing songs that echo that statement. “Come thou fount of every blessing, tune my heart to sing your praise,” and you’re asking God to be at work helping us to sing, but you’ve already started the song to sing that paradoxical phrase. There’s a lot of beauty in that.
And in early Trinitarian theology, that was one of the key themes. How do we understand how God’s Spirit is at work in and through what we do? How do we pray for that? And then how can we be alert to see the fruit of that in ways that might surprise us? So that paradox all the way back to the end of Psalm 51 is for me one of the most beautiful of all in Christian theology.
Prince Rivers:
So let’s stay with that just a little bit, because when I think about the importance of theology and the way theology shows up, most pastors are not trained in music and many musicians are not trained in theology. How do we cross that chasm? How do we bridge that chasm?
John Witvliet:
Creating opportunities for pastors and musicians to learn together: absolutely essential. And for pastors to apprentice themselves to musicians, to learn from their expertise, but then vice versa, for pastoral musicians to say, this is a theological and pastoral task that I’m undertaking, and to be willing and eager to learn and grow in that area. And in our work, we’ve discovered and met dozens, if not hundreds, of people eager for that.
And I think that’s again one of the great encouragements is just how many musicians really do embrace that deep pastoral and theological calling. It does require relinquishing the idea that we’re performing as musicians for others, and it’s a completely different mindset, but it’s one of the greatest gifts to pursue for musicians.
Prince Rivers:
That’s great. One of the other areas of change has to do with cultural shifts in our time, and they seem to be happening even more rapidly than in previous years in history, changing demographics all over the country, shifts in where the church is represented. How can churches — as we think about worship, as we think about, particularly, music and worship — think about these cultural shifts and changing demographics? You’ve got generations that don’t want one kind of music or the other, and yet they’re all worshiping together, and we’ve got to pastor all of the people.
John Witvliet:
Exactly, exactly. We find it helpful to encourage churches not to necessarily start with music, but to think about some other ways of making connections. I’m inspired by preachers that we’ve met along the way, especially in these last few years, who’ve been very intentional about convening small groups of both people from within their congregation, but also people they would love to have come to their congregation, and simply sit together with a sermon text, a Bible text that’ll be preached, say, a couple of weeks later.
And that discussion almost always changes how a preacher approaches a text. And when a preacher preaches that sermon two weeks later, let’s say, coming out of that discussion, people who are in that discussion listen to it differently. And that kind of practice draws the connection closer between that moment in worship and daily life. And if a preacher is very intent about doing that sort of thing with the very demographic groups that are a part of the change, it’s amazing how much attunement then there can be.
Or vice versa, having a discussion after a sermon is preached about how people will take that message and put it in motion in their life, and the answers to that are going to vary pretty widely across generation, culture, context. So when a demographic shifts, those listening practices strike us as triply important.
And we’ve also seen that sort of practice be beautiful when it comes to public prayer. What are the things we pray for? And I was inspired several years ago to hear about a congregation that had a group of people that got together every Saturday morning to talk about what would be prayed for the next day in public. By having a group of people do that work, many different perspectives were brought into that conversation. There needed to be a bit of negotiation about which topics were of central concern.
But there too, it’s a discussion outside of a public worship service that helps make that service more relevant and reflective of the experiences in a community. And I think that to me, many of the healthy grant proposals we read feature that kind of interplay. Absolutely it makes a difference in what the church is doing in public, but it’s that deep connection again with conversations that are unfolding all week long.
Prince Rivers:
Those are beautiful examples of getting people together to think about shifts and changes and really making it a collaborative process. So you mentioned that you wouldn’t start necessarily with music, which makes sense. [What are] some other common pitfalls that churches might encounter when trying to update their worship practices?
John Witvliet:
We’ve certainly run into examples that tend to go in the direction of where a leadership team will want to please the people more than form the people or to be in a conversation about how everyone is being formed in growth. Surveys can often do some damage in congregations. If people are asked what sort of music they prefer, they will often answer that question without really thinking about what role music is playing in their life through that.
So surveys poorly worded can be a real downfall. On the other hand, if a survey tool becomes a means of deep listening, it can be quite beautiful. And asking people in a survey to name the kinds of heart songs that have sustained their faith over decades can yield information that a pastoral leadership team, including musicians, could find absolutely invaluable.
But it’s the preference talk that usually gets us in trouble. If we try to serve multiple preferences, not only are we unable to do it, but ultimately, even more fundamentally, we’re just reinforcing that it’s about preferences rather than about something much deeper.
Prince Rivers:
So what you’re really after is really trying to understand people’s perspective and where they are on the journey, not so much what they prefer as if this is a one-stop shop.
John Witvliet:
That’s right. On the other hand, my students that take that psalm text and then listen for musical settings that resonate deeply with them: that exercise ends up working quite powerfully. I learn about what resonates with them deeply, but what they’re searching for is a setting of the sound that resonates deeply. And so there’s something beyond either the student or myself that we’re both apprenticing ourselves to. And that’s the move, whether it’s a musician or pastor or someone doing Christian education at any level in any way or other ministries within the church.
Prince Rivers:
It sounds like another area where clergy could reach out for some help. We’re not typically trained in quantitative or qualitative research, so a preference survey may feel like a thing to do, but you just pointed out that it may create some unintended consequences that we want to think about, which I think is a very helpful reflection for us.
Can you identify maybe some other challenges that clergy face when trying to lead worship and maybe some tips for how to look at that?
John Witvliet:
One very big challenge emerging out of the pandemic has been the different approaches to livestream worship and online participation. And we still do find those conversations slipping into either “it’s all good” or “it’s all problematic,” and I think that’s going to take some time yet for us. In every culture and context, that’s a bit different. It’s inspiring to think about people who are really, truly unable to come into public worship spaces for whom that livestream access is a lifeline.
It’s also true, of course, that in a lot of congregations, people are opting for partial engagement online rather than being physically present, and then there’s a lot of loss in that. We are finding examples of churches that are actively encouraging online participation, and those churches do it in all kinds of ways. There are some online worshipers that engage very passively, but we’re aware of other congregations that will actually have a pastoral leader engaging in chat or in real time with people who might not be present physically or unable to be present physically, and then can follow up in that over the course of the week. But that’s certainly an area that will need continued attention.
Prince Rivers:
That is so true. And just sticking with the idea of engagement, what are your thoughts around children and teenagers? I’m a pastor. Parents have children involved in so many things, and they’re good things that they’re involved in, and it squeezes the opportunities for children to be engaged beyond Sunday morning. But we want them singing. We want them ministering in song in different ways.
Our minister of music is providing saxophone lessons to, right now, one child, and we had him play on a Sunday morning, and we’re hoping that inspires more people. But what are you seeing in your worship space?
John Witvliet:
Well, we are very big fans of intergenerational community and having children be apprenticed into that worshiping community from a young age. It does require a lot of intentionality. Churches can equip parents and guardians to be worship participation coaches for their children. Churches can send an email out ahead of Sunday and give parents or guardians a little suggestion about something they can invite the children in their life to look for or listen for on Sunday.
And that invites a different kind of participation. Also, churches that engage part of their Sunday school or educational programming to help teach kids about things that happen in worship…so it’s not just teaching a Bible lesson about a story, but also learning perhaps a song that will be sung in worship and helping children understand that.
And then to your example, churches that are very intentional about finding ways for kids of very different abilities and experiences to be involved, whether it’s playing saxophone or reading scripture or helping in the sound booth or helping in a ministry of hospitality in some other ways, the more direct and active involvement, the better.
Prince Rivers:
Those are great ideas. I’m sure some people will want to try some of those.
So when we think about a worship leader who is new to their context, so many things I’m sure are going through their mind. They’re excited about being in this new place. What advice might you give to that new worship leader or that new pastor?
John Witvliet:
Well, it begins with a ministry of listening and inviting them, challenging them to be in conversation with members of that worshiping community, asking questions about things that regular participants and that worshiping community cherish, hearing the stories behind that. I encourage my seminary students to always ask about the heart songs of a community, the kinds of songs that people tend to choose to be sung at funerals.
After you hear several of those stories in a local context, [as] a brand-new person, that context is far less likely to inadvertently dismiss one of those songs as something to move beyond or past. And so the ministry of listening is crucial. I also think for people that are beginning a journey of worship ministry to realize that it’s an opportunity for lifelong growth.
There are so many beautiful aspects of public worship, baptism, Lord’s Supper, public prayer, ministry of the word, praise, lament, psalms, the topics go on and on and on. And then how those topics resonate with members of their congregation, that conversation’s always unfolding. I think a lot of times we invite people to become leaders, musicians, pastors also, and a lot of the effort goes into preparing that Sunday morning service for the people.
But there’s also an equally important challenge, which is preparing the people for what actually happens in that service. And seeing those two things as interrelated and building that into the rhythms of the work early on can make all the difference in the world.
Prince Rivers:
So that even goes back to the comments you just made about preparing the kids for the service. We may need to send some things out to the congregation to help them get ready for Sunday morning as well.
What trends or developments are you seeing on the horizon that are both inspiring and maybe some that you may think we need to think about?
John Witvliet:
Well, one of the — I’ll call it — “movements” that we’re very excited about is the range of work related to how congregations can welcome and create the conditions under which persons with disabilities and of abilities of all kinds can not only be in the same space, but can serve together. And that matter of disability access has often been limited to how churches think about their physical plant or space.
But really asking deeper questions about participation as it relates to worship participation can make a tremendous difference. And there are amazing people across the United States that are doing good work in that area and learning a lot from schools and how schools have created the opportunity through the architectural metaphor of universal design: how do we design not only buildings, but curriculum so that there is a much greater, almost universal access? And I think that has bridge potential for worshiping communities.
A second is a group of colleagues and friends that are doing work related to the topic of work and worship. How do we bring experiences from our own workplaces into Sunday morning rather than “leaving them at the door,” which is how we often talk about it, and then how can practices from public worship be carried into our experience in workplaces of all kinds? I think that’s a wonderful set of questions to ask. It gets back to this dynamic of worship is not just this hour or two hours that we organize on a Sunday or whenever we meet, it’s much more integrated with all of life.
Those are just two wonderful conversations with leaders across the United States and beyond that we’ve been inspired by.
Prince Rivers:
Anything you want us to think more about as pastoral leaders as you look out there?
John Witvliet:
Well, I think it really is tending those connections would be the challenge. I think another place that we feel this energy and need is in conversations related to worship and pastoral care. One of the terms that is much more prominent on my inbox now than ever is the term “trauma,” “trauma-informed.” Uses of that term online and other contexts are definitely rising and for good reason.
Well, the question of how to shape worship that is aware of how those who have experienced deep trauma in their life can participate, I think that’s inviting us into a much deeper, more challenging conversation than I think many of us know about yet. I think there’s a lot, including ways of creating space for people to step back if they need to at certain points, but also then to reflect and reengage. So that’s really a whole area of work that is really deeply needed over the next several years, I think.
Prince Rivers:
I think you’re exactly right. So what are you currently working on and how can maybe our audience learn more about some projects that you’ve got going on?
John Witvliet:
Yeah, thanks. Well, I’m in the middle of a project that is called Peacemaking Cultural Polarization and Practices of Christian Worship, and it’s a reflection on how often deep and bitter divides, culturally, politically — both in places like the United States or historically over the past 50, or certainly longer than that, too, but years in Ireland and Northern Ireland, or think of worshiping communities in Israel and Palestine.
In deeply divided times, my question is: what is it like to go to church? And what is it like for people in the same town to go to two rather different worship services that are preaching different themes, praying about different things, and yet all as part of the larger body of Christ? And I think in moments of conflict and war and cultural polarization that this topic is deeply challenging and I think is increasingly urgent in a polarized context.
So I’ll be working on that for some time. At this point, still more questions than answers. Meanwhile, I warmly welcome listeners to consider applying for a grant — Vital Worship, Vital Preaching Grants — through the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship. All the material [is] available online for people to explore that, including a list of past grantees, which numbers about 1,300 now, different leaders and communities along with brief descriptions of what those communities have done, including examples that I’ve mentioned along the way here in the last while, but many, many others as well. We would warmly encourage people to bring their questions in their quest for learning and consider applying for a grant.
Prince Rivers:
Sounds like an incredible opportunity and just a great resource for congregations all over to consider. John Witvliet, I’m so grateful to be able to spend this time with you. John is the director of the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship and Professor of Worship, Theology, and Congregational Ministry Studies at Calvin University and Calvin Theological Seminary. It’s been a joy to talk with you today. I really appreciate it.
John Witvliet:
Thanks so much, Prince. My joy as well.
Prince Rivers:
Thank you for listening to this episode of Leading and Thriving in the Church, a podcast from Alban at Duke Divinity. Our mission is to help you be the leader God has called you to be. Our producer is Emily Lund. And we record each episode in the Bryan Center Studios on the campus of Duke University. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast on your preferred podcast platform so you don’t miss an episode. If you want more resources to help support you in your leadership, check out our website, alban.org, where you can sign up for the Alban Weekly newsletter. I’m your host, Prince Rivers. Until next time, keep leading.
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