In the fifth and final episode of our third season, Prince talks with Cynthia Hale, the founding and senior pastor of Ray of Hope Christian Church in Decatur, Georgia.
Discussion topics include:
- How Cynthia’s leadership has changed over 38 years at Ray of Hope
- Cultivating other leaders
- Practices to sustain health and wellbeing in ministry
- And more!
Guest bio
Rev. Dr. Cynthia L. Hale is the founder and Senior Pastor of the Ray of Hope Christian Church in Decatur, Georgia. A native of Roanoke, Virginia, Dr. Hale received a Bachelor of Arts in music from Hollins University, a Master of Divinity degree from Duke University and a Doctor of Ministry degree from United Theological Seminary. She holds five honorary Doctorates of Divinity and an honorary Doctor of Law degree. She is also an active member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc.
As a woman of vision, Dr. Hale is revered worldwide for her leadership, integrity and compassion. Her vision and leadership led her to establish two ministries: ELAH Pastoral Ministries, Inc. and the Women In Ministry Conference, Inc. Elah is a mentoring program to assist in the spiritual and practical development of pastors and para-church leaders and the Women In Ministry Conference is a premiere national conference with a focused mission to develop, coach and mentor Christian women in ministry for the 21st century.
As a recipient of numerous honors and recognitions, Dr. Hale was inducted into the African-American Biographies Hall of Fame, the Martin Luther King, Jr. Board of Preachers of Morehouse College and the Atlanta Business League Women’s Hall of Fame. She is a recipient of the National Urban League’s “Women of Power” award, the Preston Taylor Living Legacy Award, the Balm in Gilead Keeper of the Flame Award and she was recognized in Ebony Magazine’s “Power 100” list as one of the nation’s most influential African-American leaders. In 2009, Dr. Hale was appointed by President Barack Obama to serve on the President’s Commission on White House Fellowships. She also served as a member of the 2016 Platform Committee for the Democratic National Convention and delivered the Invocation at the 2016 Democratic National Convention in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Dr. Hale is a contributing writer for many books and publications including “Power in the Pulpit II: How America’s Most Effective Black Preachers Prepare Their Sermons” and the preaching resource series “Feasting on the Gospels.” In January 2010, she authored her first book entitled “I’m A Piece of Work: Sisters Shaped by God.”
Dr. Hale presently serves on the Board of Trustees at Hollins University; she is the chairperson of the Board of Directors at Beulah Heights University and the Vice President for the Hampton University Ministers’ Conference. During her 39 years of ministry, her ministerial gift has drawn thousands, young and old, to witness the anointing of a woman totally sold out for the Kingdom of God.
Transcript
Prince Rivers:
What would it look like not just to lead, but to thrive? That’s a big question. In the post-pandemic era, church leaders are facing all kinds of new challenges. And doing church faithfully and effectively can sometimes feel more difficult than ever before. My name is Prince Rivers. I’ve got a background in leadership studies, and I’ve had the privilege of serving as a pastor for more than 25 years. One of my passions is supporting the people who lead congregations. On this podcast, some of the most innovative leaders I know sit down to share about how we can carry out our work in a way that is life-giving for us and for the people we serve. I’m so glad you’re listening. Welcome to today’s episode of Leading and Thriving in the Church.
Rev Dr. Cynthia. L. Hale is the founding and senior pastor of the Ray of Hope Christian Church in Decatur, Georgia. Dr. Hale has been in ministry for 45 years. She established ELAH Pastoral Ministries, a mentorship program that assists in the development of pastors and para-church leaders, in 2004 and convened her first Women in Ministry conference in 2005. In 2010, she authored her first book, “I’m a Piece of Work: Sisters Shaped by God.” Presently, Dr. Hale serves as the chairperson of the IC3 Board and a member of the Board of Trustees at Hollins University. She’s also an Emeritus Board of Visitors member of the Divinity School at Duke University and a recent past president for the Hampton University Ministers Conference.
Dr. Hale is an active lifetime member of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated. She’s a native of Roanoke, Virginia, and holds a bachelor’s degree from Hollins College and a master’s degree from Duke University and a doctor of ministry degree from United Theological Seminary. I am so grateful to have her on Leading and Thriving in the Church. Dr. Hale, it is a joy to be with you today. Thank you for being on the show.
Cynthia Hale:
Thank you so much. And you said we were on a first name basis, so that’s Cynthia, right, Prince?
Prince Rivers:
It is, Cynthia. Thank you for being on the show. Well, I’ve tried to give the audience a little bit about your professional background, but I know there’s more to us than what we can put in a biographical sketch. Would you just introduce yourself to the audience just a little bit? Tell us a little bit about your story. What are maybe some key moments that shaped your understanding of your calling and how you got to where you are today?
Cynthia Hale:
Sure. I love telling this part of the story because it really makes me human. I think there are times when people don’t think – she can’t be real! – but I am real. I was born in Roanoke, Virginia, the oldest of four children to Janice and Harrison Hale, and my mother and father named me Cynthia, which means bringer of light. I am sure that they didn’t understand how prophetic they were being. I grew up in a fun-loving Christian home where my mother taught me how to pray and my daddy taught me how to party. He was a party animal and that was a great blend in my parents because it helped me to live my life in a balanced way, with a love for God and for the life that God had given me.
I gave my life to Christ at nine years of age, started studying the Word in a serious way in middle school and by high school, I was teaching Bible study before class, until a young man who I led to Christ named Richard confronted me and told me that I could no longer teach the Bible study because I was a woman and women weren’t supposed to usurp authority over men. Well, I told him, “You’re not a man yet and I’m not a woman.” But I stepped down. I stepped down, Prince, because I was a biblical literalist, didn’t have the skills to exegete the scriptures at that point, wanted to be faithful to God.
It wasn’t until I entered college that I sensed God’s call in my life and started to wrestle with the text that discourages women from preaching. My pastor and college chaplain said I had the gifts and graces for ministry, but I had never seen a woman in ministry. And so it wasn’t until my college chaplain went on sabbatical and a woman took his place that God confronted my fears and apprehensions and I applied to Duke Divinity School and went there, totally obedient to God, though I wasn’t fully convinced. I had several encounters that helped me understand that I was called, one of which is my favorite. And that’s the fact that Gardner Taylor came to Duke to preach. He asked if I had a call on my life and I said yes. And the guy said, “No, Doc, you know she’s not called. She’s a woman.”
But the reality is, God had called me and Dr. Taylor said to me, “Miss Cynthia, don’t pay any attention to what others say. If God calls you, God doesn’t waste God’s material.” And then I went, after seminary, to be the chaplain at an all-male federal prison. There, I was confirmed again as having the gifts and graces for ministry because in that prison, even though those men were at the lowest point of their lives, they recognized the God in me and what God was doing. So those are my early beginnings. That’s how I started. After the prison ministry, seven years there, God gave me the opportunity to start my own church because nobody would hire me. I did. And Ray of Hope now is 38 years old.
Prince Rivers:
Excellent. Excellent. And a thriving church. I’ve been there and I’ve seen it. And it is a thriving ministry.
Cynthia Hale:
Yes, it is. Thanks be to God.
Prince Rivers:
Well, this podcast is about leading and thriving in the church, so we’re going to talk about both of those things today. Let’s start with leading. So you’ve been at Ray of Hope 38 years. The church has grown tremendously over those years. And one of the things we don’t talk about a lot is how leadership changes over time for a variety of reasons. And so I’m wondering, how has your leadership changed over these 38 years as senior minister at Ray of Hope?
Cynthia Hale:
Sure. Well, I started Ray of Hope with the firm belief that I was not the only minister in the church. I believe in the priesthood of all believers. But the reality is, I was operating as if I was the only minister and doing all of the work until it occurred to me that there were all these wonderful people in the life of this congregation who had gifts and abilities just like I do. And so, I equipped leaders initially who then became staff to run the church. And through the years, I have given away more and more of the things that I was doing and people expected me to do so that I could focus on what I was uniquely gifted to do: preaching, teaching, leadership development, visioning, strategic planning and administration. And what I try to do is not affect the things that I am not equipped to do.
And more and more as I have developed staff, I don’t do all of the administration. Many of the people who are on my staff are great administrators, some of them better than I. And so I have learned to, about every 10 years or so, maybe less, I evaluate what I was doing and ensure that I wasn’t doing too much or operating in such a way that others could not use their gifts.
The other thing that I had to change in was the way that I provided pastoral care to the members. So when I started the church, in the words of T.D. Jakes, I walked slowly through the crowd. And so I was there for everything that people did: every game, every graduation, every activity, every baby dedication with lunch after the service, all of those things. But as the church grew, I moved out in front of the crowd to lead them where I was trying to and believe God was leading me to lead them.
And then when we exploded and became a megachurch, I had to move above the people and not be so intimately involved in their lives and in the caring for the needs of the people. Do I still go to the hospital? Yes, I do. Do I still visit homes? Yes, I do. But what I learned to do was to do planned visits and not respond to every desire, every expectation that people had of me — and the youth pastor goes to the graduations and the women’s minister is having a program tomorrow night. I may or may not go, even though I’m a woman, the expectation is that I am supposed to be there. But after 38 years, I have learned not to fulfill every expectation and desire of the people. That’s what keeps me healthy and whole.
Prince Rivers:
So, how did people respond along the way? Because your expectations of yourself changed, but it takes a minute for other people’s expectations of you to change. Would you agree?
Cynthia Hale:
Well, the reality is, it took a minute for my expectations to change too, because I am a recovering people pleaser. And so, when the people did not immediately get on board, at least some of them did not, that pulled me back in. And so I taught a class, a series of classes on boundaries, and I taught people how to set boundaries and how to say no. And they just got so excited about those classes. And then I said, “Well, I’m learning to set some boundaries, too, because just like I am responsible for my life and you are responsible for yours, I can’t be responsible for everything that happens in your life.” And so I’ve learned how to say no.
And it was tough. It’s still tough because everybody that has my cell phone number, they call me instead of the pastoral care team when they have a crisis or a death or a sickness. They still call me and I have to tell them in a sweet way, “You know one thing, elders so-and-so is waiting for your call. They are there to support you.” And so you just have to constantly keep reinforcing that. But the key thing is to be clear in your own mind and heart what you need to do.
Prince Rivers:
That’s so true. That’s so true. And that’s good wisdom for hopefully a lot of people listening to this episode today. Along those lines, what do you think distinguishes effective pastoral leaders from those who struggle in their roles? And I think we both know people on both sides of that spectrum.
Cynthia Hale:
Exactly. I think effective pastoral leaders understand their own gifts and abilities and they’re open, as I said earlier, to the gifting and shared leadership with others. And they are willing to do the hard work of equipping others. You could spend — which is not effective at all — you could spend all your time doing everything, being all things to all people. That’s not effective leadership. But you could also, just as easily, spend that time walking and working with the leadership of others to develop them. As I said earlier, you also have to know how to walk slowly through the crowd. Now, the reason why you’re walking slowly through the crowd is because you want to identify who those people are who are gifted in your congregation and where they would be best suited to serve. And so I’m always looking for people with pastoral gifts, administrative gifts, the ability to strategically plan or to effectively manage people.
I believe that effective leaders are visionary and can see clearly what God would have that church, their church, to be. So that also means developing a strategic plan for the life of the church. Visionary effective leaders are not flying by the seat of their pants, nor are they trying to be all things to all people. They are focused, and that is so key. John Maxwell says that “the more focused we are, the sharper we are, the more effective we are.” And when you get focused, you discover what your priorities are or you develop your priorities, you are working on those priorities and not just anything that comes — because we could be effective leaders in the sense of being visionary leaders and moving the church forward, or we could be maintenance leaders, which is what a lot of people fall into. They may have started out as effective, but they lose their effectiveness once they started maintaining the church.
Prince Rivers:
Yeah, that’s a very good point. So when you think about being effective and growing the church and developing the church, one of the important components of, I think, Christian ministry is Christian community. Ray of Hope has grown — like we’ve said, you’ve been there 38 years. How have you used your leadership to cultivate other leaders and even community within the life of the church?
Cynthia Hale:
Well, let’s start with the whole idea of community. When Ray of Hope started 38 years ago, we were known as an intimate connection. And the way that I focused and tried to do that was every year, we have a spiritual theme to focus our preaching, our studying, our programming. We also use a devotional that focuses on the theme that people use daily. On Tuesdays, we have Bible study with small groups. On Wednesday, we have a prayer call focused on the devotion of that day. So everything that we do is focused: focused in terms of developing individuals as Christians. So we’re discipling but also focused in terms of developing them into community.
And so we have constituency groups. I’m sure that everybody has this: men, women, children, youth, young adult, college age. But all of those groups study the same thing. We’re studying the themes. Our curriculums flow out of the themes so that when your families go home, the children can talk about what they learned in children’s church and the youth in their youth church with their parents. And one of the cutest things that happens is parents often come back and tell me that they said or did something they should not have done, and their children will come back and say, “Now you know that wasn’t right because Pastor said.” And they said, “Well, how do you know Pastor said that? You weren’t in my church.” “Well, but we have the same lesson that you all had.”
And so that has developed a community. Our theme for next year is Unity in the Community because we want to refocus and bring everybody back together again. COVID separated us. COVID caused us to go in many different directions. COVID also caused us to lose the commitment of many of the people in terms of leadership and also, their own discipleship. And so we’re trying to focus that again because the strategy for developing leaders at the Ray of Hope Christian Church starts with identifying people and their gifts, but then giving them short-term responsibilities to give them an opportunity to lead and for you to observe how well they are leading. And then to take them through Servant Leader. It’s a yearlong course. Actually, it doesn’t last a whole year, but three sessions of six weeks each where they learn how to be servant leaders and then we adopt them as leaders.
But here’s the key: they are not lifetime leaders. They only serve terms — a committee or a ministry chairperson serves two years and then rotates off. An elder, a deacon, serves three years and then they can come back for another three years, six years, and they rotate off. So by that time, they’ve gotten tired. So you have to keep the flow going and you’re always…it used to be me. But now, along with the staff, we’re always looking for new people and cultivating and try to teach also succession planning so that leaders are always developing a new group of leaders.
Prince Rivers:
That is so helpful. So another question I have about leadership: I know that you mentor women, you have built a ministry around that. Talk just a little bit about how being a woman in ministry has shaped your thinking about and maybe even your approach to leadership. Maybe what are some of the personal challenges that you’ve heard from the next generation of women leaders that have come to you for mentorship?
Cynthia Hale:
Well, first of all, being a woman in ministry caused great angst among a lot of people from the very beginning and everywhere I went, even starting in seminary, as I shared earlier, the guy said, “God doesn’t call women.” And everywhere I went to apply for a job or to get my ordination or for the Bureau of Prisons, you had to have an endorsement by your denominational body. And the question that kept coming up is, “Who qualified you? Who chose you for this?” And I was thinking to myself, “Now that’s a weird question, isn’t it the same person that chose everybody else? Called everyone else to ministry?” But one day, I became really frustrated and I left the meeting. I took a pause and left the meeting, went out to my car and just in tears said, “God, who called me?” And God said to me so clearly, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you before you were born, I set you apart and I appointed you to ministry.”
He said the same words to me that he said to Jeremiah, that is one of my favorite scriptures. And I became clear in that moment that God had called me and what I needed to do was to hold tightly to my call. That in moments of distress, whether it was back then, my classmates questioning whether or not I had been called or denominational body asking questions or some elders in my church — after starting this church, leading for now some 38 years, I had two, three years ago, a group of elders who talked to the comptroller instead of talking to me and asking questions, and the comptroller had to say to them, “Sir, I appreciate the fact that you want to know about the finances of this church, and I will certainly give you that information. But if you want to know why this church is running as smoothly and as effectively and efficiently as it is and why our finances are together, you need to look across the table to Pastor Hale. I serve at the pleasure of the pastor and she knows what she’s doing.”
That shut them down. But can I tell you, Prince, the unfortunate thing is few people are willing to speak up on women’s behalf and it seems that we are fighting, fighting, fighting all the time and defending ourselves. So the challenges, the difficulties matured me. The challenges, the difficulties made me much more confident in who I am. I had to embrace Cynthia, her gifts and abilities, her calling from God. I had to know that I know, that I know what I’m doing. I don’t have to tell anybody that I’m the senior pastor. That’s when I knew that I had grown up. I didn’t have to remind them. I just operated.
I’ll tell you a situation that I had earlier on that stays with me. One day I was in our church and a man came through the door and he said, “I’m looking for the pastor.” And I said, “I’m the pastor.” He said, “I said the pastor, not the secretary.” I said, “Well, sir, the secretary is in the other office. I am the pastor. Now, if you need something from the Ray of Hope Christian Church, I am the Reverend Cynthia Hale, the pastor. What can I do to help you?” He turned around and went out. I turned around and went back in my office. I didn’t think any more about that except to tell the story through the years.
So it matured me, and I think that it also taught me how to be sensitive to the needs of others. It’s the age-old sexism or oppression and many people are oppressed. I am extremely sensitive to that because I have been oppressed myself and I needed that kind of experience early on to center me and help me to understand. The other thing too is that those challenges helped me to recognize the gifts that are within me and not apologize. And so, I’m good. So 50 years ago, that’s when I accepted my call. Can I just tell you that 50 years later, not much has changed, that the young women that I mentor have the same questions? “Am I qualified for this ministry? Will people accept me? Will I ever get a church? Once I get a church? Why are people so difficult and challenging and questioning me? Why don’t they have more confidence in my leadership? Why don’t people hear me when I preach? Why do they complain about the fact that my voice is too high? That they have a hard time listening? They wish they had a man as their pastor.” Same questions. And again, we had a board meeting. It may have been my first board meeting, and I was sitting at the head of the table when the men came in who I had chosen to lead. And do you not know that they asked me, “What are you doing here?” I said, “I’m the pastor. Why shouldn’t I be in the room?” “Well, no, we need you to preach and we will run the church.” And I said, “Sir, I was here before you got here. I started this church. I am the ordained, chosen, anointed and appointed pastor, and I will lead.” And that’s exactly what I tell the women who come to Women in Ministry conference or who I talk to, one-on-one. You must know who you are and be who you are unapologetically.
Prince Rivers:
It’s a powerful story and extremely frustrating that I hear you say 50 years later you’re getting the same question from the next, maybe even, it’s two generations.
Cynthia Hale:
Two generations. Yes, sir. Now, I tell you, we have grown because there are many more women in pastoral leadership roles and other types of ministry, but they are still going through the same frustrating situations and questions. And to me, that should not be. But of course, that’s where we are as a nation, aren’t we? We’re still struggling with female leadership anywhere and everywhere. And so, one day we will all be free.
Prince Rivers:
One day. One day.
Cynthia Hale:
One day.
Prince Rivers:
Well, we thank you for your witness and your testimony and your courage to stand where you have stood for these 50 years.
Cynthia Hale:
Thank you.
Prince Rivers:
Yeah. So given those pressures and the reality that ministry is just tough on its own, since this is both leading and thriving, what practices do you find most helpful in sustaining your own health and wellbeing, your spiritual health and wellbeing and longevity in ministry?
Cynthia Hale:
Praying. Early morning rendezvous with God and study of the word. It’s interesting because even when I’m studying the word to preach, I am so encouraged and the Lord speaks to me in such powerful ways.
Practicing solitude. That’s whether at home or if I go on vacation or retreat. I think you know that I’m single, never married. And so I had to learn how not to be lonely, but to be alone and comfortable with that. And so I am there and I enjoy being with people. I am a social butterfly, but I’m also a person who enjoys solitude and spending time alone with herself and with God. And I love to vacation. But one of the most life-changing things that I did for myself, and it took too long, was to go on sabbatical, a 90-day sabbatical. 90 days to do just exactly what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it and how so ever I wanted to do it. It was incredible.
And so I encouraged people not to wait as long as I did. I was in my 37th year of ministry when I took my first sabbatical. Now, I took a couple of weeks, I took a month off, but 90 days. And that rejuvenated me, refreshed me, but it has also taught me to take more time off. So about every six weeks, I go away for a couple of days or just lock in so that I can renew, refresh, revitalize myself.
And then lastly, spending time with cherished friends and family members who love me and who let me be authentically who I am so that I can be praying with them or I can be dancing. That rejuvenates me, dancing. I dance, dance, dance, dance, dance.
Prince Rivers:
There we go.
Cynthia Hale:
I’m a party animal, I told you. I can pray and I can party. Hallelujah.
Prince Rivers:
I love it. I love it. That is great. And I’m sure a lot of people will benefit from the advice of just getting away.
Cynthia Hale:
I hope so.
Prince Rivers:
Now, let’s go up a level. Ministry is tough. We are at a difficult place and time as a nation at the time that we’re recording this conversation. What role do you think and believe the church should play and needs to play in addressing social issues and bringing about social change and making the world really a better place and a more equitable place for everyone?
Cynthia Hale:
I believe that the church should be at the forefront in addressing and confronting social issues and the lack of justice and equality in our nation and world. We are to care for the needs of others as we do through our outreach ministries, but particularly at this moment in time, we need to become much more strategic in how we’re going to shape this nation and fight against the forces that seek to take us back, rob us of our freedoms that we have gained and place kingdom-minded people in political positions. We have to be strategic. We must plan now for the midterm elections that come in two years for the next presidential and Congress and senator races that come in four years. Strategic. Strategic about how we’re going to confront the issues that are upon us right now in this moment and not wait.
Or, sometimes, it’s as if we are waiting for somebody to give us permission to be the church, but my stance is we represent God in the world. So we are, like we say, the head and not the tail. And so we should not be like a dog wagging a tail. We are the head. We are to set the agenda for America and work to make it so. I believe that that’s not just the role of the Black church, though I think the Black church needs to take greater leadership, but I think we have to work as well with other people of color and with white people, especially Christians, to ensure that we’re operating on the same page. We may not all agree about the same things, but we ought to agree that God wants all people in our nation to be treated and the world to be treated with justice and equity.
Prince Rivers:
That’s a good word. That’s a good word and a good segue. So a good word brings me to the topic of preaching, which you do so well in so many places around the country, and I imagine around the world as well. What is preaching? What’s your definition of preaching?
Cynthia Hale:
Preaching for me is the proclamation of the good news of Jesus Christ in relevant and practical ways. An effort to have our listeners live the abundant and eternal life that Christ came to give us. Preaching is helping people understand who they are, who God created them to be and then created them to be in Christ Jesus. And preaching is meant to move us beyond where we are now to the place where God would have us to be. So my theme line, everybody knows this, is “you preach where you want people to go.” If you want commitment in the church, you got to preach commitment. If you want giving in the church, you got to preach giving. If you want loving in the church and in the world, you got to preach loving. And that’s my method through all these years.
And I tell you something else, Prince, yes, I do preach in a lot of places, but I rarely preach revival sermons in the sense that I don’t just preach popcorn or something to make people happy. I might preach on forgiveness, I may preach on discipleship, I preach whatever the Lord leads. I preach on healing, both emotional as well as physical healing. And so I think that preaching needs to be well-rounded, and that the person who is the proclaimer of the good news that we find in Christ, that started in the Old Testament — so I’m not just talking about the New Testament. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the promises God made in the Old Testament, starting at Genesis. And so we are to do that in such a way that it transforms people’s lives.
Prince Rivers:
So, you talked about preaching where you want people to go. Is that how you think about preaching to communicate vision?
Cynthia Hale:
Yes.
Prince Rivers:
Okay. Yeah.
Cynthia Hale:
Yes. For example, my doctoral work in the life of the church was to break free from the one-pastor mentality in congregational life. And so I then had to preach about the fact that the pastor was not the only leader, the pastor’s not the only minister. And so that designated individual, what’s my line, was one of the sermons that I preached. And my line talked about vision and strategic planning and leadership development. And so yes, I believe that whatever you’re going to do, you have to preach it.
This year as we worked on a strategic plan — we’re finishing it up this Sunday — our theme for the year has been Amazed by God’s Grace, Imagining More. And so as a congregation, we’re imagining more for our personal lives, for the world in which we live, our nation, our communities, our families, but also for our church. And so I’ve had to preach through that and I’m preaching through the Book of Acts because Acts is a wonderful book that talks about the way that God has strategically developed and sent forth the message of Jesus Christ through the whole world, known world at that time, through individuals who were filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit.
Prince Rivers:
That’s powerful. You also mentioned just a moment ago about being your authentic self. And I know we talk a lot about authenticity and preaching. I’ve worked with and mentored younger preachers, and I find there’s this line between maybe authenticity and maybe just putting so much out there that maybe that’s more than is necessary.
Cynthia Hale:
Correct.
Prince Rivers:
What do you think about when you think about being authentic in preaching?
Cynthia Hale:
When I think about being authentic, I think about finding your own voice and being comfortable and confident in that. And to give you the best illustration possible in terms of finding my own voice, earlier on, I’m a member of the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ. We did not hear hooping when I was growing up. I knew nothing about hooping or closing. I’m an enthusiastic preacher, but I knew nothing about any of that. So when I went to seminary and started hearing other preachers, I was like, “Am I supposed to do that?” And so I kept trying, and I do it sometimes now because I’m much more mature, but I learned to be authentic to my own voice. And that is to close a sermon the way that I feel led. Sometimes it’s with a question, sometimes it’s with an excited close. Sometimes it’s with a story that’s my authentic self. That’s what I’m known for.
When I was the president of the Hampton Ministers Conference, my colleagues said to me, “Cynthia, we’re so proud of you. You are something.” And I said, “Well, why?” They said, “Well, when you preached, you didn’t try to be anybody else. You were Cynthia.” One time, I just put the mic down, I dropped the mic. The other time I gave an excited close, but it was me. For years, Prince, I wasn’t comfortable with that. And I thought that because I didn’t preach the way others expected me to, I had flopped. And then I learned that I am a unique person and each of us is, and we can only be who we were created to be and who life has shaped and developed us into. So I always say, nobody can beat you being you.
Prince Rivers:
That’s it. That’s it. In fact, Cynthia, my childhood pastor gave me some advice when I started out in ministry and I’ve been trying to live it out these last 25 years. And that is, I said, “What should I do? What wisdom do you have for me as I go into ministry?” He said, “Be true to yourself.”
Cynthia Hale:
Yeah, that’s right.
Prince Rivers:
I wanted so much more, but I realized what a gift that was. So it is affirming to hear you say that from your vantage point in ministry as well. So thank you for that.
Well, it’s a joy to talk with you and to hear these amazing stories and to hear the work that God is doing and has been doing through you and through Ray of Hope. One last couple of questions as we think about the future and where ministry is going. How do you think that ministry has changed over your 45, 50 years of doing it? And are those changes substantive or more stylistic? Just thinking about the way doing ministry or the way doing church has evolved as you’ve seen it.
Cynthia Hale:
I think the biggest change that I have seen comes from the expectations of people. When I first started to pastor and develop the church, people were much more open to…well, first of all, they were much more committed to the church in terms of attendance and worship, Bible study, serving and giving. People didn’t mind making long-term commitments. So that meant that I could ask for what I wanted and expect to get it. That is no longer the case. I may ask for what I want, but I may or may not get it. And what I have realized is that I cannot allow that or their response to color how I view my ministry and my effectiveness because things have changed, people have changed.
The mode of communicating with people has changed. In terms of standing up on a Sunday morning and preaching a sermon to a full congregation who are right in front of you, no, that is not the case today. We have as many people or maybe more online than we do having people right before us. And so we have to tailor our preaching to that. Our preaching should not just be audible. And I’m not talking about performance in the sense of playing games or entertainment, but because there are some people who want that, they want to be entertained.
Prince Rivers:
For sure.
Cynthia Hale:
And I was confronted with that. What I realized was that I am not an entertainer, but I had to use effective means of communicating beyond what I say to help people understand. And that’s through illustrations, stories, because I’m an expository preacher. And so that’s changed. So I’ve had to be much more practical in my preaching. I used to be a heavy doctrinal preacher, but now, I have to break it down a little more so that people will understand what I’m trying to say to get the message. So that’s commitment. In terms of communication, that’s changed. And I think the last thing has to do with — that probably is the most painful for me. And that is the fact that there is not the respect and value of pastors that there once was.
And that’s painful because I am just as serious or more so today than I’ve ever been. But to know that people don’t hear me the same way, some people don’t hear me the same way. Some people don’t value what I’m sharing with them or what we share with them. They can take it or leave it. And so I often say to my colleagues, and they say to me, “Well, we’re glad that we’re at the golden years and not starting here,” because that’s a real challenge. But of course, younger ministers think differently, and so they perhaps are more prepared to deal with that.
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels. That’s true. But it’s treasure and treasure should be valued and appreciated. And I’m not talking about just celebrating the pastor, although I believe pastors need to be celebrated and not just tolerated, but I’m talking about celebrating what God is doing through the vessel and getting beyond the human perspective of that individual, reducing him or her to mere mortals. There is more to us than that. And so that’s one of the challenges. Those three challenges are the things that I think concern me the most.
Prince Rivers:
Very wise. Very wise and insightful. Last question: as we think about the future, what are your hopes for the church? The world is changing more rapidly every day: AI, you name it. What are your hopes for the church as you look forward?
Cynthia Hale:
The message never changes. The methods may change, but the message never changes. And my hope is that the church, that pastors and people, will clearly understand our responsibility as well as our privilege to represent God in the world. And that no matter what is going on, we will always be focused on that call, that unique call that is ours in Christ Jesus and never negotiate or play with that. That we’ll be serious about that. I’m particularly concerned about pastors because pastors lead people and people will follow with good leadership. And so my hope is that pastors will be unafraid, not intimidated by the things that are going on in the world given the times that we are in right now. Every time we go into the pulpit, we should be prepared to equip the people to live faithfully in the world.
So God remains the same, and my hope is that God’s representative on earth, the church, will remain the same, faithful to fulfill our calling, a charge to keep, we have a God to glorify and every dying soul to save, to fit it for this God. That’s our calling. That’s what we are to achieve. And all our gifts and abilities and power, may it all engage to do our master’s will. That’s my hope for the church.
Prince Rivers:
Great hymn and a great final word for us today. For all of the congregational leaders and pastors listening, Cynthia, I thank you for this conversation.
Cynthia Hale:
Thank you, Prince. I enjoyed it.
Prince Rivers:
Thank you for listening to this episode of Leading and Thriving in the Church, a podcast from Alban at Duke Divinity. Our mission is to help you be the leader God has called you to be. Our producer is Emily Lund. And we record each episode in the Bryan Center Studios on the campus of Duke University. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast on your preferred podcast platform so you don’t miss an episode. If you want more resources to help support you in your leadership, check out our website, alban.org, where you can sign up for the Alban Weekly newsletter. I’m your host, Prince Rivers. Until next time, keep leading.
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